Future of Fertility_Nara Lee: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Future of Fertility_Nara Lee: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Abby Mercado:
Hi, I'm Abby Mercado, an IVF mom, former VC investor, and CEO of Rescripted. Welcome to the Future of Fertility, a podcast dedicated to shining a light on the entrepreneurs and innovators who are changing the face of family building. With billions in funding over the past few years, we'll introduce you to the people, the ideas, and the businesses that are changing the fertility industry and in turn, millions of people's lives. The future of fertility is bright. Now let's get into it!

Abby Mercado:
Nara Lee is the founder and CEO of Doveras. Doveras reimagines preconception care and navigation to help more people build the families they want. The company's first product is focused on naturally improving fertility potential with behavioral interventions backed by 100,000 studies. Nora and Doveras have flown under the radar for some time now, but that doesn't mean they haven't been hard at work at helping patients. Today, they're transitioning from a low-tech business to a high-tech business, after having built the world's only database on lifestyle behaviors that impact fertility outcomes. Whoever said there wasn't consensus science and fertility. I'm thrilled to welcome Nara to the podcast today. Welcome, Nara, thanks so much for joining us today!

Nara Lee:
Thank you so much for having me and for that wonderful introduction, Abby, appreciate it!

Abby Mercado:
Yeah, for sure! Well, for starters, tell us more about yourself. Tell us one fun fact that few people know about and just kind of soup to nuts, who is Nara Lee?

Nara Lee:
I feel like you've captured a lot of it already, but my name is Nara. I'm the founder and CEO of Doveras, a company that is focused on pre-pregnancy navigation and wellness. I'm a newly minted mom of two. The process of becoming a mom is the wildest, most challenging journey I've embarked on, and it also led me to start Doveras. In a prior life by practice health care law, so I spent a lot of time, as you can imagine, reading, understanding, interpreting clinical trials and medical studies. And that's basically what our product, that you just described, seeks to do. And I guess a fun fact about me is that I love to garden, I love growing flowers, produce, you name it. And my dream one day is to win a blue ribbon at the Dutchess County Fair.

Abby Mercado:
Amazing. So born and raised, where you born and raised?

Nara Lee:
Well, I was born in Korea, but I moved every two, three years across different countries, going to international and American schools around the world, because my parents are diplomats and I ended up here for college and.

Abby Mercado:
Amazing.

Nara Lee:
Have ever since.

Abby Mercado:
Amazing. And you live in New York City?

Nara Lee:
That's correct. I live in New York.

Abby Mercado:
So, how do you garden most effectively and efficiently in New York City?

Nara Lee:
It started with like a little fire escape garden, that's.

Abby Mercado:
The good old fire escape garden.

Nara Lee:
Exactly. The tomatoes grow upward, so that was my first garden. And then it became a little rooftop space and patio space, and now we have an actual backyard garden.

Abby Mercado:
Amazing. I have to think that in browsing the Doveras' site, the first thing I saw was tomatoes. Like, if you eat more tomatoes, is this a lifestyle factor that could affect your fertility, maybe? Doveras has, sort of, studies that say yay or nay, go check it out, listener! But I have to think that this is very Nara, now that I know that you love gardening.

Nara Lee:
Yeah, I won't give away the fun fact about tomatoes other than that, they are helpful for sperm.

Abby Mercado:
Got it, got it. And I love that you can toggle back and forth, but we'll, we'll get into that. And then how did you get into healthcare law? Why was that interesting to you?

Nara Lee:
I was always really interested in intellectual property. And so the application of that occurs a lot, obviously in the biotech and pharma fields. And so I spent a lot of time advising biotech and pharma companies on how to capital raise. And I think what you don't realize from the outside is when you're a lawyer, a lot of what you do is basically read a lot of clinical trials and studies on how to explain this to investors or how to capture the results of what a company is doing from that perspective, from a scientific perspective in layman terms, so that John and Jenny who are investing can understand it. And I think that's really, that comes across, I think, I hope, clearly in our product too, because it's really challenging to understand what's a good study, what's not a good study. There really is a lack of consensus. You'll see a lot of times on Instagram or social media people citing one study as if that's the golden law and it's just not true. There's just a lot of studies that are designed different ways, that are credible in different ways, and I really personally craved understanding what was the scientific truth or what was the most evidence-backed information out there, when I was going through my early stages of fertility planning and fertility thinking and my fertility journey. And so I have always been interested in healthcare from that angle, but it took a lot for me to jump to the entrepreneur boat.

Abby Mercado:
I love that. And I feel like I'm constantly being reminded of that from one of our medical advisors and also one of our scientific advisors. We work with obviously a lot of companies at Rescripted and in terms of the community that we touch, like, the worst thing that we could do is introduce them to a company that is not scientifically backed and just grounded in data. And so a lot of the way that our medical advisors help us vet companies by looking at the studies that they've put out and some of the research that they've done, and why is this research valid? Why am I still questioning it? So what makes a good study and what makes you question one?

Nara Lee:
I'm so glad you guys do that. And of course, with your advisors too, I think that's just invaluable vetting that you guys are doing because as is in any field, there's a lot of snake oil salesman out there and I think our Northstar is to basically not be that, to make sure that you're not overpromising or over extrapolating the findings of something, particularly when people really want to believe and want to have control in such a vulnerable time in their life. What makes a good study? Well, if it's a randomized controlled trial, that's obviously a good start. If end-in-large, so if a larger population was studied, that's usually a good idea too. And I think beyond all of that, what is it really trying to test, right? What is the control? What is the actual intervention? Does it logically make sense that it was designed that way? Even when you're thinking about trying to test it out, what time period was it done over? What are the things that you can actually say are correlations versus causations? I think those are all things that if we had the time we would want to vet one by one. And unfortunately most people don't have the time to do that. And so I think that's what we're trying to synthesize for folks.

Abby Mercado:
Amazing. Thank you for sharing that, I love it. A lot of people who listen to this podcast might know that, but I love making sure that we all know that there's so much that goes into making sure a claim is valid, making sure a scientific claim is valid. So thanks again for breaking that down. Well, let's hop into it. So tell us about the founding story of Doveras.

Nara Lee:
This was a long time ago, but when I was newly engaged, I think like a lot of people, I started to think about my fertility. And back then there were no at-home testing kits. Right now, I think there's a lot more conversation around egg freezing and interventions that you can medically do to basically boost your fertility. But at the time I felt really frustrated because there was nothing really accessible and I had so many questions, as you can probably imagine. I really quickly became frustrated by the lack of synthesis, sort of as we were touching on just now, the prevalence of pseudoscience out there and just the overwhelming amount of friction in the family planning world to just get to answers. And I really craved a sense of ease celebration, if you may, a confidant, somebody who could just like basically outthink me and out plan for me. And that's basically what I tried to do in my spare time. I would come home from working as a healthcare attorney and then get my medical facts together and try to look at all these clinical trial results and basically do the same thing I was doing at work and apply it to my personal life.

Abby Mercado:
Sounds super relaxing.

Nara Lee:
And that's that.

Abby Mercado:
You were probably like, I need to do this for my own family, for my future, for myself.

Nara Lee:
Yeah, exactly. And it wasn't easy and it took some time, but I basically finally set out to create that with Doveras. We started off, as you alluded to, as a fertility concierge, and over the years we've been really privileged to support our clients in navigating some of truly the most complex, complicated fertility journeys. And we provided navigational support and really customized scientific research to IVF veterans who were doing IVF cycles, dozens of IVF cycles, cancer survivors, people who have undergone or were battling autoimmune diseases all the way to people who are looking into egg donation, sperm donation and surrogacy. And we feel really privileged to have worked alongside some of the very best fertility physicians in the country. And I think best of all, to have brought new life into this world, often for families who previously thought it wouldn't be possible. And from those learnings from those very unique journeys that we help navigate, we started realizing it doesn't matter what path you are on to become a parent, averyone asks the same flavor of a question, which is what can I be doing? Outside of the medical intervention, what can I be doing to really improve my fertility potential? And I'm sure you've perhaps asked this question yourself. I know I certainly have. I get really anxious if I drink a lot of coffee or if I had a big night out with my girlfriends drinking wine or if I'm eating a lot of tofu this week, does this impact my fertility? Like, am I screwing something up?

Abby Mercado:
Right.

Nara Lee:
And we've heard partners ask this question a lot, too. They ask, is there such a thing as writing too much of a bicycle?

Abby Mercado:
Right!

Nara Lee:
Can I ... really?

Abby Mercado:
Hot tubs!

Nara Lee:
Like hot tubs, protein powder, whatever it might be? Like, can I smoke weed? Right? Like, I think people are curious about what they can control and whether it does or doesn't have an impact on their fertility. And that's basically when we started doing one-off research that became a much bigger project. We've actually combed over 100,000 clinical studies that have to do with individual lifestyle factors and whether they do or do not impact fertility potential. And going back to the point about good studies versus bad studies, we've actually had to toss out over 85% of those original studies that we started with because they just didn't seem up to snuff.

Abby Mercado:
Wow. That's amazing, that's amazing.

Nara Lee:
If anything, like the remaining 15% to really see, is there a recommendation we can provide? And I think one of the fascinating things that came out of it was, at first we were just looking at like, okay, does this help us get pregnant or not? Because I think that's what people are most curious about. But actually what we found and what we were shocked by is that it also has a correlation to your pregnancy experience, your pregnancy outcomes, and potentially things that are expressed in your child's health. And so it seemed kind of crazy to be sitting on this information. So we went out and asked people who actually studied this and know about this. People who are now were very grateful or now are advisors who are professors at Harvard, Stanford, Emory, you name it, who have been researching this for decades. And they were like, oh, yeah, this is actually a thing. The period before you become pregnant, the three plus months before you actually conceive has this crazy outsized impact on all these different outcomes. And that's when we thought, well, we have to do something about it. We have to actually get this in the hands of people.

Abby Mercado:
I bet you also have interesting insight into what research needs to be done.

Nara Lee:
Exactly.

Abby Mercado:
That's just, that's just a hypothesis. But what do you do with that? Do you say, hey, scientist, hey, physician who is in an academic setting, we have so many questions about this. Can you, like, study this for us? How does that work?

Nara Lee:
Very early on, somebody suggested to us, you guys are doing too much work, you guys are making busywork for yourself, just look at these meta studies that summarize and synthesize years of studies. And we kind of were like, well, that's just the CliffsNotes, we want to make sure that that's right. But I think there was also value in actually poring through these studies because to your point, it helps us map out in the landscape of clinical studies what's missing, what's an understudied population, what are areas that are not funded enough. And I think we've mapped out a really great, not great, but like a good sense of what that is because obviously it's not great. You see a lot of understudied and underfunded areas, but then that, and also I think it's also helped us do something that I'm pretty passionate about, which is pinpoint what's an early versus emerging versus established evidence.

Abby Mercado:
I was just going to bring that up. I love how you've pinpointed that on your site and you've made that really clear to the user, like what's emerging, what is pretty much consensus?

Nara Lee:
Exactly, yeah, established evidence, I think people immediately get, right? Like, either something has just such an overwhelming amount of evidence that it's not going to be further funded or the consensus is really clear that doing X has impact Y. So if you drink a lot of alcohol, that's going to impact your pregnancy outcome. This is something that a lot of doctors and scientists agree on or smoking is bad for you. Those are the kind of things we would know to be in the established field. Emerging as much more tricky because emerging means either there's science going both ways. So clinical trials can run and you can have an even split in things showing or not showing promising results. But there's also a secondary where it just hasn't been studied enough things that were not traditionally funded to be studied because they were potentially not legalized yet fall in that realm. There's some evidence now starting to come out related to these topics, but it's still classified as potentially emerging because we anticipate that there will be a lot more studies being done on that. And then early evidence is early evidence, it's just early. We need to know a lot more about it in order to be able to confidently state the findings.

Abby Mercado:
Yeah.

Nara Lee:
And I think that's really helpful, particularly for fertility patients, because we've all been there. Like sometimes you wake up and you're ready to do it all. You're like, give me the kitchen sink, I am ready to do whatever it takes. And then other times, particularly if you've been trying for a bit, you're like, I can't be doing anymore. Like, I ...

Abby Mercado:
Yeah. I'm like losing my life to this. Like, this is really a challenge, totally. Yeah, we see that every day.

Nara Lee:
So then you're like, just give me the most established stuff. Like, I don't want to be experimenting with things and we want to make sure we meet people where they are. We want to be able to let you toggle between how much you want to change in your life. And I think that sense of control is really important.

Abby Mercado:
Totally. So in startups, we like to hack things together, do things quickly, right? And you mentioned that you had people say, look at the meta studies, like, why are you digging into all of these studies? So how did you do all of that efficiently and effectively, these 100,000 studies? Did you have teams of people working for you? How is this actually carried out?

Nara Lee:
Yeah, it's part human and part tech, right? So the human aspect is there was a small army of really overqualified PhD students who are way smarter than I could ever aspire to be helping us and pouring through things. At the granular level, our advisors even came in and looked at the way we were phrasing things, framing things as well as the individual recommendations that were made, and we can't thank them enough for that. There's also a tech part to it because at some point we need to make sure that we're not reading the same study twice or that we have covered the right search terms and whatever that may be. And so there was a component of it that was very much digitized and not done by me up and my glasses to name a few, like ... sheets.

Abby Mercado:
And so was all of this going on simultaneously while you were running the fertility concierge business?

Nara Lee:
Yeah, a lot of it was driven by questions that our clients already had. We just decided instead of doing it piecemeal to ask all the questions upfront, and once we found that there was something really big we were sitting on, we felt like this was information that everyone deserved to have.

Abby Mercado:
And so on the concierge side, little birdie told me that you've helped some pretty impressive people build their families. How did you build up your client base? How did people find you? I'm just curious about what Doveras was and what it's becoming today.

Nara Lee:
We've helped a lot of really intentional parents, basically, and I think that's basically everyone who is on a fertility journey. When you are thinking about your fertility so actively, there's no way that you are not intentional in your parenthood dreams. The very first of our clients came word of mouth. It was really, truly people at my law firm who found out this is what I was striking out to do, who then came to me one by one saying, oh my gosh, I was thinking about taking a leave or changing doctors or whatever it was, I needed an egg donor. The many ways in which people achieve family formation is just so beautiful to me, even now, and still stops me in my tracks, but it started from there and then it became organic referrals and eventually clinics referring their patients to us because the physicians themselves saw a real value in what we were doing and hand-holding our mutual patients together. And so now I'm really proud to be able to say that the top fertility clinics, particularly in the New York City area, refer or have us as a preferred concierge and recommend a lot of patients to us. But when it started off, as you can probably imagine with any startup, it was just very scrappy, helping your friends along, helping your colleagues along.

Abby Mercado:
Awesome. Well, congrats on the growth and on that side of the business, of course. So let's talk about Doveras today you're in beta currently and you've built this amazing tech platform. Tell us about the business and how it works today.

Nara Lee:
I think we're really excited to be able to offer this particular product, the pre-pregnancy cleanup, as we call it, to a lot more family formation journeys like we've basically done all this scientific homework and we think a lot of people could really benefit from it. The pre-pregnancy cleanup is a program that helps individuals and couples naturally improve their unique fertility potential through really personalized evidence based lifestyle changes, right? And so we give you three different things, your top recommendations. You tell us what your lifestyle is and we give you the where to start. A handful of lifestyle changes that you can have, the biggest impact on your fertility potential. We also give you a tailored supplement protocol that's just for you, that's backed by science. And we don't make supplements, right? So you can trust that we're not trying to sell you something that you don't need. And the third component is a holistic curriculum, you get 20 plus lessons that help you make quick win changes and build intuition around nutrition, toxin exposure and wellness. Basically what we call the three pillars of fertility to help boost your fertility potential.

Abby Mercado:
Amazing. Nutrition, wellness and toxins. And so that essentially came from all of these studies.

Nara Lee:
Exactly.

Abby Mercado:
Those three pillars. Amazing. So tell us who's kind of the ideal consumer Doveras, it seems like the fertility concierge side of the business was like more complex cases, etc.. Is it, am I reading it right that the ideal Doveras consumer kind of on the content side and on kind of the personalized recommendation side is a little bit earlier funnel, so people just kind of getting started in their family planning journey?

Nara Lee:
I think that's exactly right. I think the first group of folks are the fixers. They have received some sort of diagnosis or they have been trying to conceive and for some reason they're not getting the outcome that they want or they were just informed that, hey, you may have to intervene with IUI, IVF, whatever it may be. And for those people, they're really eager to do something or change something in their lifestyle to boost those outcomes, those medical outcomes. But I think what we have found our product to also strike a chord with is this population of planners, the people who are just starting to think about their fertility journeys or maybe they just got married. Maybe they already are biohacking and other different areas of their life, and they know that making lifestyle changes, improving their health can have an impact on whatever it is that they are trying to impact in their life outside of the fertility journey. We're reaching people who are thinking about fertility in a more holistic context alongside the rest of their life.

Abby Mercado:
Amazing. And I love how you talk about the planners in terms of biohacking. And I think that there's, I don't know if you guys have done any research on this, but the planners, people seem to care a lot more than they used to. Like, I don't think our parents generation, they just had sex and how to get, and got pregnant, you know? How is this generation different? I have some opinions, but are the planners taking over the world? Because I feel like they are.

Nara Lee:
I think there's a planner in all of us, I think. You've probably heard this a lot, too, but we are told that we're going to get pregnant so quickly in sex-ed, and so you're avoiding it for decades. And then suddenly the switch turns one day and you're like, why am I not pregnant yet, right? And there's nothing in between, really. Whereas our lifestyles have become busier. A lot of people, especially pre-pandemic, were potentially traveling for work, having conflicting schedules when whether you are trying to conceive on your own or in a partnership, it's just, there's so much on your to do list on a daily basis that it's hard to imagine conceiving just like that. I mean, I know those people exist out there, too, but.

Abby Mercado:
Hey .... No, I'm just kidding. Love them all, kind of.

Nara Lee:
But it's just one of those things where when you actually look into the science of it, you start realizing there's only so many days you're fertile. And when you stack that up against calendars, it's statistically very rare to be able to conceive on any given month. And when you factor in things like your personal fertility, your personal health, it becomes even more and more challenging. And so with this kind of knowledge, empowering people, I think more people are turning into planners.

Abby Mercado:
Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world. So let's talk a little bit more, we've talked a little bit about the product and we've talked a lot about kind of the drop, but how are you building this business? How are you hiring? How long did it take to build the technology solution? Will you raise money? Have you raised money? Somewhere more about this as the CEO?

Nara Lee:
The question that I get a lot is how you build your team. And I think a lot of people think that this is a tech problem, but I think it's at the end of the day, a really human-centered problem. Fertility is a really pivotal point in your life that is so primal, that is so vulnerable that you really have to meet people where they are. And so designing for that moment is a core challenge. And so I'm really grateful that we have Nina Montgomery, who comes from IDO, who has an incredible human-centered design background leading the product design on this. We have always thought about this product as something that we want in the hands of everyone. You know, ideally this would be something that is on a wedding's registry or something that couples do together or people do on their own as a really fun way to think about the very beginning of their parenthood journey. And so I spend a lot of time thinking about how to meet people at that moment and to bring that joy back. If I could wish one thing as a legacy for Doveras, it's that we take that burden and that like, ugh, frustration or that angst away for you so that you can focus on the joy of becoming a parent, or that you can be that sigh of relief or have that extra bit of breathing room. And I think those are the moments we're really trying to design for. And that's what I hope every person on our team joins Doveras for as well. We're a small team, but we're a team of really incredible advisors, really incredible academics, scientists, engineers, designers who have all been on their own fertility journey in different ways. We've had people who conceived through surrogacy all the way through people who literally got pregnant on the first try on our team building this together. And I think that inclusivity and the diversity of the fertility journey is really important in building a team.

Abby Mercado:
Totally. That makes sense. And kudos to Nina, that site is absolutely beautiful. I can tell that a lot of thought went into it not being polarizing for anyone. That design is very inclusive, it's obvious that you guys really thought through that.

Nara Lee:
I also thank you for saying that. That's very affirming coming from you.

Abby Mercado:
So tell, so will you raise money? Like are you bootstrapped?

Nara Lee:
Yes, yes, we are bootstrapped so far. Sorry I left out.

Abby Mercado:
No, no, you're all good.

Nara Lee:
We are bootstrapped so far. We are taking on some capital this year, in Q1 of this year for the very first time. So we're excited to meet investors in that context.

Abby Mercado:
Amazing. And then I think maybe last nitty-gritty business question, you have announced your beta, you're recruiting for your beta. Do you have any learnings to date? Have you had to pause and say, okay, we're going to just adjust this or make a quick pivot here because of this learning? Would love to hear a little bit about that, if you have those learnings.

Nara Lee:
You know, when we set out, we really wanted to be intentional about supporting inclusive journeys. And so you'll see that everything is designed for either just egg, just sperm or egg and sperm because we don't want to assume that it's always a heterosexual couple coming into this, working on this together. As it turns out, and I don't know, this comes as a surprise to anyone or for most people, but it's usually the female in the relationship making the male come along the journey with us.

Abby Mercado:
Yes! We see that at Rescripted, too.

Nara Lee:
And so there's a lot of additional moments that we've had to design for where we have to bring the partner along in the journey and send extra nudges along so that they actually take action, that's been a key learning for us.

Abby Mercado:
No, that's awesome and it's such an important learning. I think our, at Rescripted, obviously, we're a media company and so we produce content, that's what we do and we have a lot of male infertility content and it is read by 97% female. So yeah.

Nara Lee:
Yeah. And you know, it takes one egg and one sperm, right? And so you would hope that the balance was otherwise.

Abby Mercado:
I know.

Nara Lee:
... That is being done, but that is something that we've learned and something that we're really excited to support, particularly for those heterosexual couple journeys. We hope that we can be the ones nagging or be the ones taking on the load of.

Abby Mercado:
I hope so. As this podcast knows, I'm an IVF mom because my family has male factor infertility. I'm a heterosexual relationship and low motility, poor morphology, and that was really difficult for us. And I think that I'm passionate about males being more involved in this, and I hope that you guys are successful at bringing the male partner along and really getting them engaged and a lot of these lifestyle choices and making sure they're following along as well.

Nara Lee:
Absolutely. I think the science really speaks to our male audience because we literally say, hey, like this recommendation, this lifestyle recommendation impacts specifically sperm morphology or sperm count or whatever it is. And we actually go through the science quite a bit, and that's been met with really positive response from the male demographic. And I think a lot of it is also reminding people why they decided to have a baby together in the first place, right? Like, you really like each other, and we want to virtualize these amazing moments for folks. It's not just about like you have to go do X, Y, Z thing, we want to make sure that we bring the fun back into it by making recommendations or suggestions that can be easily implemented into that couple's life.

Abby Mercado:
Eat more tomatoes, guys. Well, this has been so fun. It's so obvious that there's so much of your DNA in this company getting to know you a little bit better in this podcast. And I always ask this question at the beginning of this podcast, but it would love to know, Nara, if you could rescript one thing about the fertility journey, the fertility industry, anything fertility, what would it be?

Nara Lee:
I would hope that it is less reactive and I think it's changing a lot, particularly with the amazing companies that are popping up in the fertility space. But inherently it still remains a standard of care that is very reactive. Whether that is try for a year before going to see a doctor, try for six months if you're over a certain age, you have to have gone through so many miscarriages before it is really escalated, that all feels very reactive and sort of out of sync with how proactive people want to be and how people want to be taking more proactive control about their fertility lives. And so I wish it could be, and I hope we are helping it be more proactive.

Abby Mercado:
I love the idea of getting Doveras on your wedding registry. That's a great idea, what a great gift. Awesome, well, Nara, where can people find you and where can people learn even more about the Doveras?

Nara Lee:
You can find us on our website at Doveras, D O V E R A S.com, or @Diverse on Instagram. We will be here helping people have healthy families.

Abby Mercado:
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This was absolutely wonderful and I'm sure we'll talk soon.

Nara Lee:
Thank you so much for having us, Abby.

Abby Mercado:
Thank you for tuning in to the Future of Fertility. We hope you'll leave here feeling empowered about all of the exciting innovations taking place in the fertility space. If you liked today's episode, don't forget to click subscribe, and be sure to check out Dear (In)fertility, our popular podcast/advice column where we chat with experts about all things fertility, infertility, and pregnancy loss. To learn more and to join our free Fertility Support Community head to Rescripted.com.

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