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Missy Modell:
Welcome to Sorry for Apologizing. I'm your host, Missy Modell: activist, strategist, and recovering chronic apologizer. In this podcast, we'll explore all of the ways women have been conditioned by society to play small, whether it's being expected to have children, tolerate chronic pain, or accept gender inequities, from orgasms to paychecks. This season, we'll work to challenge the cultural beliefs that brought us here and discuss all of the reasons why we should be asking for forgiveness rather than permission. It is time to stop apologizing.

Missy Modell:
What a way to kick off season two. It feels strange and dishonest to not address the current state of the world that we're in right now. At the time of this recording, we're in the middle of the Israel-Hamas War. As a Jewish person, I feel very called to share a message of heartfelt peace and just tremendous heartbreak. We are seeing so much anger on social media, so much misinformation, so many people who are just so quick to post without verifying facts, and I felt it was vital to take a step back here. At the foundation of all of this is a need to find humanity, empathy, and compassion for all of those innocent people that are impacted, both in the Middle East and everywhere in the world. I wanted this to be a moment for you to just care for yourself, so you can hold space for others. And today, I'm so honored to speak to Rachel Kastner. She's a creative and social impact producer from New York, who now lives in Tel Aviv. She's the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors and has focused on Holocaust work for the last few years. She is such a gifted storyteller who seeks to promote resilience and empathy, both of which is so needed, especially today. So, Rachel, I'm sitting with you here right now, and you're in the midst of a war zone. I don't know what I want to say. It's an impossible conversation to even start. And I was having trouble with even opening this up.

Rachel Kastner:
I was telling some friends earlier today that we need to come up with a new, a new sentence instead of asking people, how are you? Because nobody wants to ask it, and nobody wants to answer it. I think that we just, before the next war happens anywhere in the world, we just need to come up with a better, like another way of saying, hi, I'm glad you're alive. I love you, and I want to know how you're doing physically and emotionally, in a shorter, more concise way, of course.

Missy Modell:
And Rachel is in Israel, for people that are just tuning in and want to get kind of a contextual framework of what we're talking about today. And I don't really want to get into the geopolitics of what's going on, because I think what I really want to talk about is maintaining empathy and compassion during a time of such crisis and turmoil, and you have expressed such incredible sentiments along this conversation. So I wanted to turn to you for what's guiding you in this moment. How does one maintain compassion when you're being bombed and when people are trapped and both sides are suffering so tremendously?

Rachel Kastner:
I appreciate that, that opening and yeah. And located in Tel Aviv and without going too much into it, my daily life has been completely interrupted by a war that I didn't ask for it to start, and I have no interest in it continuing. And it's incredibly painful to be a human being going through something like this. And I just, I'll share with you that my grandparents are Holocaust survivors, and they, I grew up in a home that came with stories about what it was like during World War Two. But I was raised in New York in a relatively privileged and safe environment. I never feared for my life. I never was hungry. I felt safe in my home. This experience has just given me so much perspective, because there are so many people around the world that feared for their lives, had threats on their lives, been in active war zones, and I just have even a tremendous more amount of empathy for really the world and like the breadth of experiences that we can have. And in terms of compassion, I think that there are so many things that we can impact.There's compassion for yourself. How do you show compassion and caring for yourself during impossibly painful circumstances, whether you're in a war zone or whether you're going through some other kind of trauma? And I'll definitely say that this is a trauma. This is a traumatic experience. It's been going on for days. This is a trauma that me and my community and the whole world are going through. So, but I think that this is a trauma and there are similarities to this trauma and other traumas. And I hope that this can be helpful for whoever is listening. I think that there's compassion, empathy, or show yourself during times of trauma. There's compassion, empathy you show your friends or family or whomever you're going through with. And then there's compassion and empathy for the other, whatever the other is in your situation. And that is definitely a huge challenge and something that is really a deeply, a part of me for a long time. But it was definitely been tested to the max this week. Definitely tested to the max this week.

Missy Modell:
What's testing you?

Rachel Kastner:
Yeah.

Missy Modell:
Which part of it?

Rachel Kastner:
There are people who, I mean, we have to give a little bit more context, I think, without going course into a politics conversation. But I'm in Israel. It's October 23rd at the time of this recording, October 2023, and here in Israel, we suffered a huge massacre at the hands of a terrorist group that was, that's operating out of Gaza and controls the Gaza Strip, where 2.2 million Palestinians live. And it's resulted in huge war, a big hostage crisis, etc. So that's just the context. Me, myself. I've been passionate about peace in this region for a really long time. I grew up in New York. I was far away from it in some sense, but I was also close to it in the sense that I was raised with a deep love and respect for Israel as a country because my grandparents were Holocaust survivors. We, we knew that the country of Israel and the state of Israel was always a home to us in the times that Jews were being persecuted. And even so, I always felt a deep compassion and sense of empathy for the Palestinian cause and Palestinian lives, and much to the, kind of much the contrary of maybe some of the people that I was around or that I was raised, who were angry at this whole big group of people because of the pain and the wars that have been fought over the last decades. And I personally have always been drawn to this part of the world as a place where I've always wanted to make an impact. And I studied Arabic, I studied political science, I studied the Middle East conflict. There was something that was drawing me to it. And now, in this war, where I personally know people who have been killed and other things that we don't have to talk about off the podcast just to stay away from the trauma, and also because I really can't think about it too much. But people have been killed and slaughtered and kidnapped. That's really testing my, the limits of empathy that you can share for the other, right? Because the other is so demonized in the news that's around you and in the conversations around you. But I still can access it. I still can access it. I still believe we need to access it. And, but there are so many different things that we can talk about. We can talk about that compassion for yourself. We can talk about the compassion for people around you, and how do you support your friends and family and the people that are also in this pain and sadness. And then, there's the compassion for the other side, let's call it, or the other...

Missy Modell:
I think it's really hard to just use your voice right now, in general. And I think there's a lack of media literacy with what's going on. And I'm sure you being where you are in the world, and seeing what's being said is very painful. People denying experiences. People denying things even happening. People denying your emotions. So I think, in terms of that, in terms of, is it something that you respond to? How do you show up and continue to use your voice, and fight against, maybe what feels like a louder, contrarian voice?

Rachel Kastner:
I have always wanted to tell stories. Like, that was always who I was as a person, as a kid growing up. I just loved movies and TV, and I wanted to be an actress. And I think of the things that drew me to that was always the way that stories made me feel. I'm a huge Harry Potter fan, a huge Harry Potter fan. I'm deeply obsessed with Harry Potter. And, as a kid, Harry Potter would literally be in my dream. That's how deeply it made me feel about magic and adventure. And like, that impact that stories have on your soul, your mind, your feelings, your impressions, your opinions, etc, was always a guard for me. Whether it was drawing me to acting, whether it was drawing me to producing, whether it was, eventually helped me decide that I wanted to kind of tell stories from the ground here, in the middle of the war, which is what I've been doing over the past ten days. Social media is simultaneously the worst thing ever, and also I'm so grateful for it in this moment. It's, I'm grateful for it in this moment because I think about my grandparents during the Holocaust who didn't have any way to ask for help or advocate or use their voices. And it was so limited, the information about what was happening to them. Of course, we know that people did know what was happening in America, but it was still limited. And so, I believe in social media as a way for all people to be able to share their truth and share their story and share what's happening on the ground. That said, it's also become kind of a cesspool on the worst place on Earth, especially in the last ten days here in Israel. But in general, whatever time you're listening to this podcast, I'm sure you've felt this way at some point. Social media is just, is just the worst sometimes. And what's been really hard over the past few days is the lack of care that people show towards innocent civilians' lives in a war zone, and how it's become so easy and so callous for people to look at pictures of trauma that's been enacted on innocent victims and say, "This doesn't matter", or "They deserved it." And I think that, that is just so, that just shows like the deep lack of empathy that like, has become so normalized. And also, I think that it's simultaneously that we've become so desensitized to violence, like we've become so desensitized to violence in general, in our lives because of social media. Also because of the news. Also because of television, just for a long time, as far back as I can go in my head. I know what horror movies look like. I've known what the news looks like. I remember the ISIS beheading that had, that they recorded on YouTube. I don't even know how young I was. And I have that in my head, of James Foley in my head, for the rest of my life. And that kind of like violence over and over again for years has just turned, at least my generation, like the Zillennial and Gen Z, into just how, we're just callous towards violence. Whether it's enacted on politicians, military, or innocent civilians. And innocent civilians being like the most extreme example of how callous we've become. But the degree of violence to which we have seen is not normal, and our souls are not meant for this. We're not meant to see and ingest and digest that much. The work of still being compassionate and empathetic towards people who don't look like you, or don't practice religion like you, or don't speak the same language as you is that much harder because we're so far away from them, and at the same time, we're so close to all this violence. And I think that my own working thesis is that empathy is a muscle, and the more you use it, the stronger it becomes, and the less you use it, the weaker it becomes. And that's a good thing because it means that anyone can become more empathetic with intent of it. But it also means that it's not natural. It's not natural for us necessarily to be empathetic towards different people. There's always been ingroups and outgroups. We've always had kind of that survival instinct in our DNA as human beings. It's not natural to be empathetic to people who are different than us, but we have to fight above that because of the circumstances of the days that we live in. And we're living in a very connected global world. And if we don't practice empathy for conflicts that are far away from us, where people that look different than us, I just can't even imagine a world where we, I don't even want to speak into the mic what I fear, if we don't work on that. So that's been leading me, that's been guiding me. Obviously, like, my pain is like, first and foremost, with my own people we're under attack. But I also deeply feel and cry over, without really needing to try because I just, I've been trying to be empathetic to this cause for so long. But I'm deeply worried about the "other side". I really can feel empathy and compassion for them, in a way that I know people around me don't always feel. And I think it's just because I've, like, been intentionally trying to cultivate that sense of empathy for so long, even while holding my opinions about the politics, or about who's to blame, or about X, Y, or Z. And I think that, like, it comes down to nuance. It comes down to caring enough to spend those extra few minutes understanding complexity. So I don't know. That's about, that's I think a lot about empathy for the other.

Missy Modell:
And in your peace work that you've done with Palestinians, what has been something that was a guiding principle that you found to be useful, that we could maybe share or just kind of a principle or something that was used when thinking about that?

Rachel Kastner:
Sure. I've participated in some pretty amazing programming throughout the years. One organization that I worked with that is just unbelievable is called Tomorrow's Women. They're a nonprofit based in the US that does dialogue and leadership work for young women from America, and also Israeli and Palestinian women. And we met during Covid. So it was on Zoom, which meant that we were actually able to include women from Gaza. And I had never met any Gazan women before because they can't leave Gaza or, and the ones that do, I probably wouldn't run into casually, necessarily. I had friends from the West Bank before. Palestinian friends who had met in other places in the world. I had new Arab-Israelis, whether they consider themselves Palestinians, Palestinian-Israelis or Israeli-Arabs. But, and I'd never had any interaction with anybody from Gaza before. And I don't remember if it was a few months after we finished this kind of, like, group work. There was another war or operation between Gaza, Hamas, and the IDF, and there were rockets flying overhead. And I was thinking, I was in the bomb shelter in, in, in Tel Aviv. And my thoughts, my heart and thoughts were with this girl, whose name I just don't want to use for her own safety, but, with this girl in Gaza, who I knew was under rocket fire. And afterwards, I learned that she and her family were able to get out from Gaza, and they ended up moving to Turkey. And we were able to message a little bit. She got out during that time. And we were able to message a little bit the week after. And like, that connection meant so much to me. And I think about her all the time. We've written to each other a few times since then. She was applying to college. I had to help her with the college application.

Missy Modell:
She was young,

Rachel Kastner:
But like, that window into her life, like on a little zoom box, was so meaningful to me because it just, it broke down what the other could be. It just broke it down into something that was so relatable because she and I were like, both electing to be there with our kind, were both these young women. And it was so meaningful. And I just, I think about her often. I think about her a lot, probably more than she thinks about me. So I don't know. For me, there's this deep okayness with there being more than one way to look at things. There's this deep okayness with simultaneously, I have a narrative about my trauma and pain. And you have a narrative about your trauma and pain. And they can contradict. But we can also find things in common. And like, when we find things in common, we can achieve more than if we're not speaking. So that's something. There's so much going on here. There's so much to unpack. I work for an Israeli company that employs several Palestinians to, in Gaza and a few in the West Bank. And again, that kind of work, that kind of cooperation that's around shared mutual goal into health tech company, we all believe in the mission. That's what the work is about. It's not talking about politics. It's not talking about borders. It's not talking about land. We're all united on that. We all just want to provide and make a salary and be able to put food on the tables for our families, and that's why we're there. And that is so powerful. For me, anecdotes work. For me, these anecdotal stories are, like, so meaningful, and they're what I hold onto when I feel like I'm surrounded by darkness. And I do feel surrounded by darkness right now. And really, do I feel the hatred very much. I feel hatred towards me as a Jew. I feel hatred towards me as an Israeli. I feel hatred towards me as an American. I feel the hatred that is towards the women, hostages that were taken. And I question, I don't understand, like, why all the people that I know that work in women's rights and stand up against violence towards women are not standing up against this situation where there is so much violence being enacted against the female hostages that have been taken. So there's so much heaviness and darkness and hatred and, like, the empathy and compassion that I'm talking about is not accessible 24/7. But overall it is keeping me alive. And it is 100% necessary towards my survival. And it is, it's also, like, the only way that I can choose to live in this world that is so broken. My grandfather was saved by Christians who saved him during the Holocaust by hiding him underground. Like, I was raised from, before I was born. This was in my blood. We have to stand up for what's right. You don't want to be a bystander. We have to understand. We have to be able to help people outside of our own tribe. Like, these are things, are fundamental to who I am as a human being. And like, this is what I will advocate for, until I can't. Until the end of my days. So that's kind of motivating me very much.

Missy Modell:
And I think we're seeing just a dehumanization of people. And people are just connecting them to their governments and grouping them together. So I think that's just been the hardest thing on both sides. And it saddens me that there even has to be an other, and that's the world we live in, versus just living synchronistically together. It's just very hard to understand and comprehend.

Rachel Kastner:
It's very hard. It's very hard. And the idea of dehumanizing, what is our species evolved to that we do that to each other? It is so unbelievably difficult to realize that we're capable of doing such. And not just that the extremists are capable of murdering and slaughtering and raping and all these things, but that the average population is capable of, and culpable of dehumanizing large swaths of people. It's just, it's crazy. And again, as the descendant of Holocaust survivors, you always wonder, like, how could the world would really have done that to so many millions of people? Not just the Jews, but also the other populations that were killed by the, at the hands of the Nazis. Like, how could the world really let that happen and been so okay with it? And not just the world, but like, how did all of Germany and all of Poland just let that happen? And like, how was there so much hatred everywhere in the news, and in the schools. And then, there are moments in your life where you're like, wait, I'm seeing this happen again. I'm seeing mass hatred, mass indoctrination, mass dehumanization at large groups of people. And it's really sad and really scary. It's just awful. It's just awful. And yet, I don't find my place in it. I don't find my place in it. I have to stand outside of that because that makes me crumble. I really just, I can't live in a world where that is just the norm. So, I don't know if it's, like, blind optimism that I'm going with. I don't know if, I don't know if it's blind optimism. I don't know if it's something else. But like I'm choosing every minute that I can, where I'm not overcome with grief, to push hatred aside in favor of compassion. And it's not easy at all.

Missy Modell:
What do you want to say to the people that might just be confused? What do you want to say to them? Or rather, what do you want to say to people who might appear apathetic right now, if you had a message for them?

Rachel Kastner:
I think it's so hard to talk to the apathetic. I think that speaking to the masses is really hard. I think that honestly, the best that we can do is speak to each other, speak to our friends, speak to our communities, speak to our colleagues, speak out, and say, I know you care about me. And I believe that you're a good person. And I know that this is an incredibly complicated and complex thing. And maybe you didn't reach out because you're scared. Maybe you don't want to say the wrong thing. Maybe you didn't reach out because you have complicated feelings about this. Maybe you didn't reach out because you don't know, and you don't want to burden me with asking me to teach you. But I know that you care. I, or I really hope that you care, and I would like for you to give me a sign that you do, because I'm lacking faith in humanity right now. And I need the people that I love around me to remind me that people do care, that people care about me and my parents and my family and my being and my safety. And if you can give me that sign, then we can start a conversation. So I think that is the message towards the apathetic. And I think that for whoever's listening, whether Jewish people or not, whether this is, this crisis is going on while you're listening or whether you're listening in the future, like, the message, in general, is that we have such a profound impact on our spheres of influence, whether it's your Instagram friends, whether it's your people at work, whether it's your neighborhood dog-walking group. You interact with people on a daily basis, and you make a difference in their lives when you speak to them, and when you choose not to speak to them. And if there is some injustice happening in the world, even if it's complex, do your research and then reach out to people. Being apathetic, not standing up, not saying anything, you are going to have to live with the guilt of being a bystander, and it will come back to haunt you, I promise. You can read about the accounts of people who didn't stand up to the Nazis, who survived from Nazi Germany, and they died with shame. They died with shame. And we just can't be the kind of people that in 2023, see what's happening in Ukraine or see what's happening in Israel, or see what's happening in these other crises around the world, and not stand up against violence, against terrorism, against rape, against violence towards women, against inequality. It's just, that's not who we are. And we have to call on ourselves for more clarity. And I think there are like moments in your life that just change everything and turn everything. And for me and my friends, this is one of them. And I just, I pray for everyone that it doesn't take such a close crisis and trauma to kind of turn that on.

Missy Modell:
What do you say to your friends that are Jewish and are scared? What do you want them to know right now, whether they're in Israel, or in America, or abroad?

Rachel Kastner:
First of all, that we are not alone, that we come from generations of people who have been resilient and lived through traumas and have always rebuilt, and that we will continue to rebuild, and that we will continue to be people who do light into this world. That has to be our guiding mission. That's always been our guiding mission. That's what has to keep us. We have to keep each other in check. We have to keep each other in line and continue to do that. And call out bad actors, whether they're within our tribe or outside. And we have to continue to stand up for a just and equitable world, whether or not people stand up for us. And we have to take care of each other. And I can share with you that I've been very active on social media during this time, and I've received thousands of messages of support from Jews and also from thousands and thousands of non-Jews all over the world, every country imaginable. And I, it's given me a lot of strength, and I've done my best to share it with people around me. But we have to take care of each other, and we have to look forward to the day where we, where we start to rebuild. And I look forward to doing that with you, Missy, and with everyone else.

Missy Modell:
And it feels like a silly question, but I ask everybody that comes on the show. What, in this moment are you sorry, what in this moment are you sorry for apologizing for?

Rachel Kastner:
There are moments where I've apologized for being Jewish and observant Jew because I couldn't go to things on Saturdays or because things were being complicated. I was in shows and I couldn't be there on Fridays and they had to switch me out or whatever. Those are, like, kind of minor examples. But there have definitely been moments where I've been not the most proud. And I am, I'm sorry for apologizing for being Jewish. That is something that I will never apologize for again.

Missy Modell:
I love that. Yes, I feel that too. And I'm just thinking about you, and I'm thinking about everybody that's just innocent in this horrible mess: Palestinians and Israelis. My heart is breaking, and I'm just praying for something better.

Rachel Kastner:
It's coming. It has to be.

Missy Modell:
If people want to find you, which I guarantee they will, where are you, that they can locate you? Not your specific... We don't want.

Rachel Kastner:
Yes. So I will not be giving an address. No, but you can find me on Instagram at @rachelraykay. R-A-C-H-E-L. R-A-Y. K-A-Y. My friends call me Ray Kay. You can call me Ray Kay. You can call me Ray... And that's where you can find me. And just sending love, and just praying for, praying tomorrow to wake up and just not be a nightmare anymore. And praying by the time we're all listening to this, we are on our way to rebuilding for everyone.

Missy Modell:
Thank you so much for your time. Stay safe.

Missy Modell:
Thank you for listening to Sorry for Apologizing, brought to you by Rescripted. If you enjoyed this week's episode, be sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our amazing guests. To stay in the know, follow me at @MissyModell on Instagram and TikTok, or head to Rescripted.com, and don't forget to like and subscribe!

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