Sorry for Apologizing_Diet Culture with Brittany Modell: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Sorry for Apologizing_Diet Culture with Brittany Modell: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Missy Modell:
Welcome to Sorry for Apologizing. I'm your host, Missy Modell: activist, strategist, and recovering chronic apologizer. In this podcast, we'll explore all of the ways women have been conditioned by society to play small, whether it's being expected to have children, tolerate chronic pain, or accept gender inequities from orgasms to paychecks. This season, we'll work to challenge the cultural beliefs that brought us here and discuss all of the reasons why we should be asking for forgiveness rather than permission. It is time to stop apologizing.

Missy Modell:
Today's guest is Brittany Modell. Brittany is a registered dietitian, certified intuitive eating counselor, body image coach, and co-host of the Food Therapy podcast, which I love. She is the founder of Brittany Modell Nutrition and Wellness, a weight-inclusive practice that focuses on helping folks deal and heal their relationship with food and body and enjoy food again, and offers virtual counseling group programs and online courses. And she also is my blood sister. So Brittany, welcome to the show.

Brittany Modell:
Hello, and thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Missy Modell:
I'm very thrilled. This is a conversation we have all the time and I thought it was important to bring it to a bigger stage because I think it's something we all really should be talking about, which is healing your relationship to your body and why our society is the way it is, no small feat to tackle. So we're going to start with a tweet that you sent me, so thank you. It is from dietitian Anna, A friendly reminder that when you say unkind things about your body, you're communicating feelings about bodies that are not yours. So can we deconstruct this? What does this mean?

Brittany Modell:
It has become universal to talk negatively about our bodies, and when we talk negatively about our own bodies, we're also talking negatively about other bodies that might look like ours, that might be bigger than ours, that might be smaller than ours. And so what this tweet is saying is every time you say unkind things about your body, you're also saying unkind things about bodies around you. And if a friend of mine hears me say, I hate the way my body looks, I need to lose weight, I'm too big, what message does that send to my friend if she's actually in a larger body than I am? So the reason I love this tweet is it's not just about the individual. We want to think about how our words impact the greater society.

Missy Modell:
100%, but it's also wild how common it is and it's almost expected. If you get a compliment, you're like, oh no, my arms look flabby or, no, I need to work on my stomach. We can't accept compliments, especially as women in society. Why do you think that is? Why do you think it's more common to insult your own body versus receive a compliment?

Brittany Modell:
I think it's the way our society has been conditioned to think. We all do this where it's almost impossible to receive a compliment. If you compliment yourself or your body, somehow that person is conceited, and I think this especially goes for women, where it becomes this community of people who just want to talk about their diets and food and dieting and things that they can change about their bodies. It's a way that women have been able to communicate with each other and bond over, this sense of like self-hatred in many ways.

Missy Modell:
And there's a stat, we're going to have a lot of stats on this show today, but the National Institute of Health showed and said that it's an estimated 20 to 40% of women that are dissatisfied with their bodies, and it's also reported in men suggesting that 10 to 30% of men show body dissatisfaction. So what does this stat tell you? That, why is this a big problem?

Brittany Modell:
I actually think that the statistic is probably much higher than what this is reporting. You know, when I think about having conversations not just with clients but with friends, it is rare to hear someone say, especially a woman, to say, I love my body, I am so happy with how I look, I'm so accepting of my body. And this is really problematic because we know that when somebody is dissatisfied with their body, it can definitely lead to more disordered eating and or eating disorders. And we're raising generations of newcomers who are then trained and conditioned to also hate their bodies as well, and so it becomes this like cycle.

Missy Modell:
So what is the difference between a disordered eating pattern and an eating disorder?

Brittany Modell:
So eating disorders are in the DSM and they have certain criteria that need to be met in order to become an eating disorder. However, there are definitely some caveats in this because, for example, one of the criteria for anorexia nervosa is to be a certain BMI size or to lose a certain amount of weight. And we know something called atypical anorexia where it's not necessarily weight loss or even a certain BMI that somebody can have an eating disorder. Less than 6% of eating disorders, the person is underweight. So the biggest difference here, eating disorders, again, there are certain criteria within the DSM, disordered eating can be a wide range of aspects of an eating disorder. So, for example, if somebody is constantly thinking about food 24/7, having extreme food guilt, cutting out food groups, exercising to make up for last night's dinner, I would say the majority of our society has some level of disordered eating, so it's more of a spectrum where eating disorders is on one end of the spectrum, and then you have different levels within the spectrum of disordered eating. But one thing I want to point out is it doesn't matter if you have disordered eating or an eating disorder, because if it is impacting your quality of life, that person should seek out help. And I think that there is this idea of, well, I'm not sick enough to get help. You know, I'm not this caricature of someone with an eating disorder. And if you were to ask somebody like, what is the face of an eating disorder, we think about white, affluent, thin women. That is not the face of an eating disorder, that's just the face of an eating disorder that the media tells us.

Missy Modell:
So what is the face of an eating disorder?

Brittany Modell:
There are many marginalized identities. And what's interesting is like, women of Color are much less likely to get diagnosed with an eating disorder, although they have the highest rates of bulimia, for example. But the care is not for them, it's for women who are, again, fall into this like white, affluent profile. And even the research we have within eating disorders, again, if you look at who is being researched for these evidence-based practices, it is a very small group of people. So we need to expand who is actually having an eating disorder and get that message out that doctors can properly diagnose that we can have more systems in place that is a lot more inclusive than it is right now.

Missy Modell:
So we keep talking about women because I do think that the diet industry and many of these societal constructs are really geared towards women. We see so many ads catering to women. And why do you think that is? Like, why are we the vulnerable receiver of all of this?

Brittany Modell:
Yes. I mean, it comes from the patriarchy. And the truth is, when you know, men in our society, they want to keep us small. What better way to keep women small than to have them think about their body sizes and dieting and body image? That is a way that we are kept small in society. Because if I'm thinking about starting the keto diet, I'm not thinking about the war in Ukraine, I'm not thinking about other political events that are happening. So this is society's way of keeping women small, both figuratively and literally.

Missy Modell:
And when we spoke about this and we frequently talk about this topic, but you also mentioned that it's sinful to enjoy food. You shouldn't have pleasure in food, in sex, and all of these things. It's almost like a stripping of pleasure. What do you think about that?

Brittany Modell:
Yes, and so this actually came, like Puritanism, if you think about it, it's like clean food. What's so interesting is like, why do we feel so guilty about enjoying food? Food should give us pleasure, and yet we have been conditioned to eat these like pieces of grilled chicken and spinach and kale steamed and somehow become naughty or guilty by enjoying that slice of chocolate cake. This comes from years and years and years and years ago. So this isn't something that has happened in like the 2000s, this has been going on since the beginning of time, especially not even just in the US, but also across Europe as well.

Missy Modell:
But it's so strange because, obviously, I did a bit of a deep dive, historically speaking, and we're not going to get too much into it today because that's a whole other conversation, but Prehistorically through the 1900s, there was this focus on full-figured silhouettes, larger breasts, symbolizing fertility, attractiveness. And then in the 20th century, there was this really big shift towards this athletic, slender body, and obviously, now we're seeing more diversity. What are you finding? Can you speak to maybe what causes these shifts culturally? Like what is this kind of ebb and flow of what is the norm?

Brittany Modell:
It depends on what time frame we're thinking about, too. Right now, I would say celebrity culture absolutely dictates beauty standards. And in the past, the beauty standards really stemmed from slavery, and during times of slavery, I highly, highly recommend purchasing a book, Fearing the Black Body by Sabrina Strings. It is an incredible resource to really understand the history of diet culture and the thin ideal, the beauty ideal, and it really just takes a deep dive into the history. If you're a history buff, if that's something that you're interested in, this is such an incredible resource, and I think it's important to give voice to those who deserve to take the platform. Again, I'm white, I have thin privilege, which we can get into, so it's really important to pass the mic to those that can speak to this much better than I ever could.

Missy Modell:
What is thin privilege? Walk us through thin privilege really quickly.

Brittany Modell:
So thin privilege represents the social financial benefits somebody is able to receive because they are thin or relatively smaller, and this can show up in many different ways. And one thing I want to mention is that oftentimes I'll hear, well, I don't think I'm thin, so I don't have thin privilege, but we're talking about the greater society, we're not talking about how you as an individual feel about your body. You can have poor body image but still have thin privilege. So I'm going to give a few examples of what thin privilege looks like. Thin privilege could be walking into a department store and they carry your size, not having to go to a special store or a plus size store. And the higher in weight one becomes or one is, the less privileged they have, so there is a spectrum of privilege. So somebody who is a size 14, 16 has a lot more clothing options than somebody who is a size like 24, 26. So clothing is a big one. Airplane seats. How often can people not fit into seating in the airplane seating in a Broadway show, seating in a restaurant? So knowing that you can go to any restaurant, any show, any play, and you can comfortably fit into a chair, that is thin privilege. There is thin privilege in healthcare, going to your doctor and actually being seen and heard for whatever it is that you are experiencing within your body. So many people in higher-weight bodies experience extreme discrimination, extreme weight bias. So I will have a client that will go in for a stomachache or something else that's happening within their body, and the first thing the doctor says is, why don't you try to lose weight? So being able to be seen and heard by medical providers, that is thin privilege. So as you can tell, just being able to live in our society without people criticizing you, harassing you, is thin privilege. One interesting fact that just happened, a law, and I'm not sure if it was passed yet. It's one of the first laws within the state of New York that actually forbids discrimination against somebody in a higher-weight body in the workplace and in other areas. So we are so hopeful that we're going to start to see more changes like this, because right now somebody could get fired for their body size and that is just unacceptable.

Missy Modell:
It's unbelievable, and it's also, just shows that it really is pervasive in every single area of life. And switching a little bit because, you know, you're planning a wedding and I can't help but think of the phrase Shredding for the Wedding, and Beachbody, and all of these catchy phrases that we've been taught our whole lives. Do you feel pressure, even with thin privilege, to fit into a certain wedding dress or to look a certain way?

Brittany Modell:
What's interesting is, again, I have been privileged and I would say I tried on a lot of dresses, and you were there for that.

Missy Modell:
Yeah.

Brittany Modell:
Out of maybe 50 dresses that I tried on, maybe five of them actually zipped. So this is somebody who has privilege, who is what we consider to be straight size, and yet I could not get most of those dresses to zip up. So, yes, there is definitely this pressure to look the best you ever looked and be as toned as possible. I feel fortunate that I've been in this space that I've been in for so long that I have really been able to develop a thicker skin against diet culture, especially within the wedding industry, but let me tell you, it is hard. And I have so much compassion for people who are about to experience these like big life moments when the body is somehow always pulled into it.

Missy Modell:
And what about even dating? For people listening, like maybe they're not getting ready for their wedding, but they're in the dating pool and they're having a hard time and finding they're being discriminated against or they don't feel comfortable with how they feel. Again, that's part of a larger conversation, but important, because they're told that they're not in a small enough body, even though they also likely have thin privilege or don't.

Brittany Modell:
Yes, and this is where I think the And statement is helpful, it's commonly used in ED. I recently attended, Bri Campos, who is a body image coach, and she's an incredible account on Instagram. She hosted a, I believe it was like some type of Zoom for folks in larger bodies to find love and what that experience is like. And the truth is, it is harder to find love when there is such a focus on body size and thin privilege, and especially with dating apps. You're swiping based on first appearance and what somebody looks like. And so something Bri says is like, yes, it is harder and it is still so possible to find that person. So think about it as a way to remove everyone that doesn't have values that align with yours. Because if somebody is only going to date you based on how you look, that person probably isn't somebody that you want to date. But I do want to give out compassion because it is definitely harder to date when you are in a larger body size. And yet there are so many people who find love, who find amazing partners and, you know, so that's where that And piece comes in. Yes, it is harder, and there might be some barriers there, and it is absolutely possible to find your person.

Missy Modell:
But also, they might not even be in a larger body but are thinking because they're looking at magazines and on social media that the way they look is not up to par.

Brittany Modell:
Yes, and there is usually this saying of like, well, when I lose X amount of pounds, then I can go on vacation, then I can go on dates, then I can get a new job. And what's so unfortunate about that is you're putting your life on hold until you reach this dream-size body that even if and when you do become that size, doesn't guarantee happiness. And, you know, it's something we will think about, because for many people, when they do lose weight or if they lose weight and they actually become smaller, it's like almost as disappointment of, oh, I thought like my life was going to be so much easier and so much better and so much more joyful. And there are all these things that are kind of holding them back still, such as not being able to enjoy food with friends in a restaurant or try foods while traveling and so forth.

Missy Modell:
Absolutely, and I feel like a lot of people are seeking out these, like, quick fixes. I'd love to talk about Ozempic and even buccal fat removal, like these kind of things that are really big right now culturally. Without doing the work beforehand, you're going to be in the same mental situation that you were.

Brittany Modell:
Yeah, what's interesting is Ozempic has been on the market as a diabetes medication for many years. And again, right, I mentioned celebrity culture and TikTok culture. All of a sudden Ozempic is being used as this like powerful weight loss tool. And we want to remember that it's not all butterflies and roses, there are some serious health consequences and symptoms that can happen when you are taking Ozempic. And unfortunately, a lot of people who actually do need Ozempic, who are the type two diabetics, they can't even get their hands on them because people are paying out of pocket to have Ozempic. It just shows us the lengths people will go for thinness, and it's not just thinness, it's to fit in, it's to be accepted, it's to be loved. And it's important to recognize that, too, because it's not just, oh, I want to be able to fit into my jeans. For some people, it's like I want to fit into society, I want to feel accepted by my friend group, I want to find love. So it goes a lot deeper than just the surface.

Missy Modell:
And also, I know your big thing is that skinny does not equal healthy. So can we go into that a little bit? Because I think a lot of people will say, oh, she's thin, she's in good shape, you would argue not.

Brittany Modell:
So skinny does not eat healthy, and fatness does not equal unhealthiness, it does not equal laziness. This is something, again, we have been conditioned to know, and it is incredibly harmful and problematic, because first of all, there is a lot of research that points differently, and people are not getting healthcare that they need because they are in certain sized bodies. One thing that I always bring up is there is not a single health condition that only happens to someone in a certain size body. Anybody can develop type two diabetes, anybody can develop high cholesterol, anybody can develop heart disease, and yet we again, as society, we have been conditioned to think, oh, that person is fat, right, and I'm using fat as an adjective, but that person is in a larger body, they must be really unhealthy, and this is incredibly problematic. I highly recommend checking out Aubrey Gordon's work. She is the co-host of Maintenance Phase, but they dive into a ton of research around all of this. And I think it's really important to know where this stems from and how it's really impacting the rest of us.

Missy Modell:
And maybe even people that should go to the doctor aren't going to the doctor on either end of the spectrum because of fear.

Brittany Modell:
Yes.

Missy Modell:
Do you need to be weighed at the doctor?

Brittany Modell:
No, and you can decline getting weighed. If the nurse practitioner or the doctor is adamant that you get weighed, you can always turn around and tell them, I do not want to discuss my weight. There are very few reasons why somebody needs to get weighed in the doctor's office. If there's a medication change or if you're starting a new medication, if you're pregnant, if you have heart failure, really specific reasons, but it has become such a cultural norm. Okay, like you're going to get your teeth cleaned, like, why don't you jump on the scale? You check into a hotel, there's a scale there. So there are so many areas in which we do not need to get weighed. But again, it's become like the norm.

Missy Modell:
And I'm sure this stems from childhood. I remember even being a kid and stepping on the scale and it kind of becomes ingrained to you inside of you that that is part of the protocol knowing how much you weigh. We know somebody, very personally, who weighs themselves every single solitary day, morning and night. What is the problem with keeping such stringent tabs on this? How important is weight?

Brittany Modell:
It's really not important at all. And when I'm working with clients, we don't even discuss numbers because I'm not that interested in the number of what someone weighs. I am so much more interested in someone's relationship with food, their relationship to movement, and getting adequate sleep, and getting enough water, and managing their stress levels. There are so many ways one can measure health. Weighing yourself is just creating this tumultuous relationship with your body. And if somebody goes on the scale and the number is down, they might see, oh, I could eat whatever I want, like, this is amazing. And if the number is up, all of a sudden, like they feel terrible about themselves, they feel frustrated, they feel a failure. So if you are somebody who weighs yourself every day, like getting really curious about like, what are you searching for when you jump on the scale? Like what is the intention behind it and the why? We have a scale in our apartment, I have not weighed myself in two years and there have been times where I'm like, oh, I'm just curious. But why? Like, that's what I always go back to. Like, this is not going to change the way that I eat or anything else, what is the purpose? But I do know that so many people have such a strong relationship to the scale, and it can feel really scary to stop weighing yourself because they might feel like, oh, I'm going to lose total loss of control with my body.

Missy Modell:
And I also just feel, like on social media, I've seen so many viral videos of these transformations from being in a larger body to being in a smaller body. Why do you think this is harmful and why do you think it has such virality?

Brittany Modell:
I think it is such virality because people are always looking for the unicorn. They want to be that 5% who is able to successfully keep weight off, and I say 5% because what the research shows is close to 95% of diets fail. And even though that's true, people are like, well, what if I'm just that like 5% then, that could actually keep the weight off? So I think people are so curious and interested to like, well, what is this person doing that I could take on that I could do? TikTok is perfect for that because you don't see anything that happens between, you see the before and the after, but you don't see how that person is eating, how their relationship with food is, how their relationships with other people have been affected by their relationship with food. And I usually say that the after photo is really the during, because to get to the before and after is not as hard as to actually maintain and keep the weight off. So we don't see what truly happens 2 to 5 years down the line, which is when most people regain the weight.

Missy Modell:
And just in terms of like cultural zeitgeist moments, like these viral videos, we hear a lot about the dad bod and it being sexy and in, but there is no female equivalent of that. Why do you think that's tolerable, but the idea of a mom bod is just kind of repulsive?

Brittany Modell:
Yeah, I mean, the criteria for men and women are very different. The societal expectations for men and women are incredibly different. Women are expected to bounce back after growing and delivering a child nine months later, all of a sudden, we're expected to go back to our pre-pregnancy bodies and weight. There is just a lot more pressure, and if we think about women, it's like we're supposed to be small, we're supposed to be dainty, we're supposed to be polite, and again, the whole point of the podcast, like apologizing, I'm so sorry for taking up space. So it makes sense that men are like, You can have a dadbod that's actually hot. That's, you know, celebrity culture says it's like, cool. But women, oh, no, we have to continue to be small because if we're not, then we're going against the ideal.

Missy Modell:
And you sent me this stat that 22% of children and adolescents have disordered eating globally. So this influx obviously is likely caused by a lot of factors, but social media is probably a big one, and parental mirroring. So what is the hope for our future generation? Are we headed in a dangerous direction even though we're seeing progress in diversity and inclusive sizing? Where do you think we're headed to right now?

Brittany Modell:
It's a really important question, and I would like to be optimistic and say we're heading into this incredibly inclusive place where folks no longer care about weight and body size, but unfortunately, the rates of disordered eating, again, like 22% of children, adolescents have disordered eating globally. So we're not even talking just in the United States, we're talking on global scale, and it shows us that regardless of the culture, it is a really big problem. And you mentioned like, there are many different areas that affect this, social media is one of them. Beforehand, you would have to go out and buy a magazine, and on a magazine you might see a cover and think, oh, she's beautiful. Now, it's so easy to go on to TikTok or Instagram or BeReal, whatever the apps are, and compare yourself to other people. And the biggest issue is, with technology, there are so much people can do to alter their body sizes, their faces, so you're not even looking at real people anymore, you're looking at filtered versions. But kids and adolescents and adults, we don't see that, we just think, Oh my God, that person's perfect. Not that person has had somebody behind the scenes spending like 20 minutes of their time filtering and removing any flaws of that person. So yeah, this study is really important because as adults we want to be really cognizant about what we are saying in front of kids, what we are saying in front of adolescents. We want to be cognizant about what we're saying about ourselves. If kids and teens hear parents talk poorly about their bodies, what message does that send to them? And so it's really hard and it's hard to be a parent in 2023, I imagine, but it's also really hard to be a teen and an adolescent as well.

Missy Modell:
Do you think it's possible to rewrite the standards that have been cemented into the cultural foundation that we have?

Brittany Modell:
I do. I think right now these ideas of inclusivity, but mostly, of this like fat liberation, acceptance, is pretty radical and it's not the norm. My hope is that over time we can continue to normalize it, but it is a really radical idea.

Missy Modell:
Are you finding that in your own practice it's hard to convince people to be intuitive eaters?

Brittany Modell:
Yes, so the reason it is, it's so difficult to be an intuitive eater is although all of us were born eating intuitively, we were all born with this ability to understand hunger and fullness, right? The baby pushes the bottle away when it's had enough milk. But what happens is over time, these messages become deeply embedded. You know, if the parent says you've had enough to eat, like don't eat seconds, or a teacher says like you can't have another snack. So all of a sudden we go from really trusting our bodies to a complete lack of trust and not knowing how our bodies are, and that's why so many of us look out to diet culture to get the answers. It's this idea of like, oh, I can't trust myself to know how much food I need or what type of food I need. Let me follow the latest diet because they must know more than I do, but we are all the experts of our bodies at the end of the day. Like no diet, no food journaling app, no fitness pal, none of that will ever have the level of expertise of your body as you do.

Missy Modell:
I love that so much. Thank you for saying that. And I think it's important for us to remember to be our own advocates and our own compasses because we're always looking outward for answers, and it's inside.

Brittany Modell:
Yes, it's inside. And if you need that level of support, surround yourself with non-diet work. So, for example, following people on social media who have more body acceptance, who are following intuitive eating principles, get into support groups or work with an intuitive eating counselor or work with a therapist that is familiar with this type of work. Because it is radical and it is really hard to go against the norm, but it is so worth it.

Missy Modell:
I also just want to say thank you because I feel like I've caught myself saying things about myself or making comments about ordering too much and I stopped myself because I have you in my head now. So I just want to say thank you because you are really doing very challenging advocacy work that's not openly accepted and you're being really brave and really transforming the way we approach our bodies, so thank you.

Brittany Modell:
Yeah, and I'm so glad you brought that up because it also shows us the power of being able to reframe our thoughts. So our brains are malleable, they're forever changing and our brains have the ability to have neuroplasticity. We can literally change the way we think about things, the way we look at things, and it is the coolest thing to see my clients just change their thought patterns over time.

Missy Modell:
So I want to ask you, what are you sorry for apologizing about?

Brittany Modell:
So I'm sorry for apologizing, taking up space as a woman, especially when I'm like in my gym, I feel like I'm always like, oh, sorry. Like I could be working out at a workout station, a guy comes over and starts using my equipment, and then I start apologizing. So in general, I have been catching myself noticing when I'm apologizing and actually getting curious, like, why am I apologizing for that? Just today I realized I had a text message from someone from last Saturday who forgot to respond to, and typically I would say, Oh my God, I'm so sorry that I didn't respond to your text. Instead, I was like, let me get back to you on that. So I'm noticing how often I'm saying sorry and I'm trying to say sorry less.

Missy Modell:
I love that so much, and I love you, you're amazing.

Brittany Modell:
I love you.

Missy Modell:
So where can people find you and your incredible advocacy work, and work with you?

Brittany Modell:
Yes, so I'm @NoFoodFears on Instagram and TikTok. You can definitely find me hanging out on Instagram, trying to build up my TikTok. You can go to my website, BrittanyModellRD.com. But I would say the best place to find me is NoFoodFears on Instagram, which I assume will be in the show notes and you can reach out. I am accepting new clients and I just love this type of work because I get to help people change not just their relationship with food, but like their entire life. Because it's not just about food, it really does kind of bleed into every other area of their world.

Missy Modell:
It does, and also, I'm going to shout you out. Brittany has an amazing course for parents, so if you're interested in unlocking this generational trauma and dieting, check that out with Britt as well. But you're amazing, I'm so fortunate that we're related. And I love you.

Brittany Modell:
Love you.

Missy Modell:
Bye.

Missy Modell:
Thank you for listening to Sorry for Apologizing, brought to you by Rescripted. If you enjoyed this week's episode, be sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our amazing guests. To stay in the know, follow me @MissyModell on Instagram and TikTok or head to Rescripted.com, and don't forget to like and subscribe.

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